[Waxon]

Here is a place to seek the answers to things that have been eating at you for three years now.  Together we can find our way.

[Waxon]

This question was posed to me:  What was the line "What do you want Butchie Yost" all about?  Why that question is only addressed to Butchie, no one else? What is it about Butchie that John wants to hear only from him? Etc

I have no idea.

Any thoughts?

[SaveJFC Admin]

Interesting questions...

"What do you want Butchie Yost?"

First, I think it's important that John uses his last name "Yost".  I don't remember him addressing or referring to anyone else by their last name...  For example:  "Work here, Cass."  "Shawn will soon be gone." 

Butchie followed in his fathers' footsteps and had big shoes... or a big board  ;)... to fill.  Did he ever feel like he had a choice?  Maybe Mitch Yost was always withdrawn from the family after his accident so it was up to Butchie to bring honor back to the family name.  Did Butchie go into surfing to get his fathers' attention and approval?  But, like any teenager, he rebelled and ended up changing the sport forever.  If this was his hearts' desire... his true calling... why did he drown himself in drugs and nearly kill himself?

And let us not forget... Cissy had a hand in shaping how her son turned out (so sorry for the terrible pun... or maybe now  ;D ) and that experience did have its impact.  Maybe even stunted his emotional growth since it was never dealt with open and honestly.

I don't think Butchie ever felt like he had a choice.  Even to the point of the girlfriend he loved deeply getting pregnant, and what does he do?  She's ready to give birth and he's living in a dumpster in Mexico.  That's not a place one resides when they see themselves at having other options.

"What do you want Butchie Yost?"

Did anyone ever even ask him that before?  Did he ever even ask it of himself? 

By asking Butchie to think about his future and what he wanted it to be like, it gave Butchie permission to take some control...  exert some personal power... over the course his life would take.  That simple question gave him a choice he never had before.

"What do you want Butchie Yost?"

And what do you want?

[Eccles]

This question was posed to me:  What was the line "What do you want Butchie Yost" all about?  Why that question is only addressed to Butchie, no one else? What is it about Butchie that John wants to hear only from him? Etc

I have no idea.

Any thoughts?

My first thought is to thank you for posting this and drawing my attention to this thread. I was wondering which thread might be best for this sort of discussion, and abracadabra, here it is.

I recall the conversation Link and Tina had about Butchie in which Tina basically says that he used to ignore her at parties, and Link explains that if Butchie is at a party and talks to everybody but one person, it's that one person he really wants to meet. In other words, even though Butchie might be a celebrity people want to get close to, if he sees someone he really wants to meet, he doesn't feel confident enough, wanted enough, to walk up and introduce himself. It makes me wonder if Butchie had ever asked himself what it is he wanted. Would he dismiss even the hint of such a question as simply setting himself up for another disappointment? You know ... him bein' such a fuck-up and all. Is him "being a fuck-up and all" a condition which serves as an excuse for him not to experience even greater pain by actually trying to answer the question and identify what he wants?

Then I remember what the physician said at the backyard half-pipe when he asked Butchie why he thought he was "ineligible" to experience what had gone on. As I recall the scene the question had an impact on Butchie. Here's a smart guy - a doctor no less - telling him that a fuck-up though he may be, he may still be eligible for joy.

My first thoughts on the subject.

This is fun! Thanks.

"He's in Number F." (Ramon.)

;D

[Eccles]

Interesting questions...


By asking Butchie to think about his future and what he wanted it to be like, it gave Butchie permission to take some control...  exert some personal power... over the course his life would take.  That simple question gave him a choice he never had before.

I think so, too.

I often think of the first time we see Butchie and Shaun together at the motel. Surely there is a huge part of Butchie that wants to attend his only son's first ever surfing contest (or whatever they call it). And yet, he reacts angrily to the idea. That's not for him. He can't have that. It pisses him off that anyone would even suggest it.

[Eccles]

Over on the poetry thread, sven2 responded to a post of mine:

Eccles, first about Cass's camera. I think that no one, besides the creator is able to see the world without any preconception unless they are 2-3 years old, (even then the life of the heart has pains and memories). And the creator in this case might be a power so many times removed from the human existence and indifferent to see the reality that way. So, who's seeing the world from the camera? Not us. Just a side thought though.  

Thanks. I suppose there are "preconceptions" in the sense of memory telling us what something is, and then there is all the stuff we attach to it - feelings, expectations, demands, resentments. I'm thinking of Cass's camera in this latter sense.

Here's an example of what I mean. When Cissy shows up at the motel ready as always for a fight (I still love Cissy), Ramon says to Barry: "Let me avoid this woman's tone." I love the scene which follows in which Cissy sort of bounces around unable to find anyone to return her anger and negativity.  As you remember, Butchie and Kai are are in his room, "Number F," where a breakthrough has taken place insofar as, having scored some heroin, he does not use it ... he does not want to use it. When Kai and he leave his room after the breakthrough, the first person Butchie sees (all ready and itching for a fight) is mother-dearest, perhaps the chief source of his explosive, self-destructive anger. And yet, despite her tone, Butchie just looks at his mother evenly. He doesn't return her sharp tone. He just sees her and speaks with her without a hint of anger, as if he doesn't need to define the present moment between them in terms of their past conflicts. It's in that sense I think Butchie begins to see the world in Cass' camera.

Or not.

;D


 

[Waxon]

Great answers - and you really got me thinking.

You know, I kinda think that question is the whole point of John's visit.  Butchie is kind of the central character - the one we identify with the most - the one that is most followed in the story. In a sense we are Butchie Yost - or, at least Butchie is the chosen one to represent us all

(Aren't we all (mankind) just a bunch of "dumb surfers" who have fucked our lives up?)

In this sense, the purpose of John's visit (according to Milch) was to ask us "What do you want?"

God (at least the New Testament God) has always left our fate up to us in this way.

When John was riding in the van with Joe (episode 1) and Butchie's name came up, John immediately said "What do you want?" as if he was programmed to say that:  

Vietnam Joe: You comfy-cozy sweat-pea? Slip you a mickey and then forget to roll you--typical beaner behavior.
John: Some things I know, and some things I don't.
Vietnam Joe: Tell me something you know.
John: The end is near.
Vietnam Joe: Huh! Feel that way half the time myself.
John: Mitch Yost should get back in the game.
Vietnam Joe: I don't know Mitch Yost.
John: I should have a good health plan, I see Mitch Yost again.
Vietnam Joe: Butchie Yost I know. Flops in that shithouse on 7th.
John: What do you want?
Vietnam Joe: What do you mean?
John: Some things I know, and some things I don't.
Vietnam Joe: I'll drop you at Butchie's. He may know where Mitch is. Get you your health coverage. Then I'm gonna role a fuckin' fat one. (Vietnam Joe slaps a ball cap on John's head.)

and when John arrives at Butchie's door:

(Butchie's room. Knocking.)
John: (from outside) What do you want, Butchie Yost? (Butchie spies out the peephole and sees John.)
Butchie: (speaking through the door) I want to see some dope coming out of your pockets. Or my $2300.
(John produces a wad of cash from his pocket. Butchie opens the door, moves out quickly and looks suspiciously around.)
Here I am. Eyes to see the sunset loaded. And just flew off the handle with your people. What a fucking jerk. Let's go call the ice-cream man and tell him I'm sorry.  (He takes John inside)

What do you want, Butchie Yost?  is God asking us what we want - save the world or not.  

And wouldn't we (as a society) respond about the same way Butchie does by saying "just give me some dope or money and we'll be fine..."  

We are the ones who are not used to being asked what we want.

Just a thought.

[Waxon]

Follow up thought:

Not to be overlooked is the fact that John gives Butchie the cash.  A demonstration that he can deliver...

[SaveJFC Admin]

I totally didn't get any of that before!  Great insight, Wax! 

I have a clear memory of John asking Butchie on the pier but you are right, it was the second thing John did after he arrived.  #1 go see Mitch.  #2 Ask Butchie what he wants.

So the point is what?

First, we have to make a conscious decision to get out of our self-imposed prisons created by the disappointments of our past (Mitch).

Second, we need to ask ourselves, honestly, what we really want our future to be.  Not what others want, or what little we think we deserve...  but what we really want...  what will make us happy...  what will make us feel wholly ourselves.

So, if that is steps #1 and #2... What is step #3?

[Waxon]

Step 3: Communicate steps 1 and 2 with each other - (cave drawings), (the man at the wall), (the circles and line on the wall), (The internet is huge), (symbolism)...

BTW - Great to see Eccles here!  Hope he will visit often.

[Waxon]

Step 4 has me stumped, though!

Anyone?....

[SaveJFC Admin]

Step 3: Communicate steps 1 and 2 with each other - (cave drawings), (the man at the wall), (the circles and line on the wall), (The internet is huge), (symbolism)...

Hummm...

If steps #1 and #2 are the beginning steps for the individual, than maybe Step #3 (and Step #4 ?) is doing the same for the community.

Step #3:  Consciously letting go of the trap of the mutual negative experiences that were shared in the past.  i.e., seeing people for who they are now (something JOHN is great at). 

Step #4:  Re-establishing a group identity/purpose based on shared desires for the future.

[Waxon]

Perhaps part of the process lies in our children (the next generation)  

"Shaunie Yost!"

Have to go, now.  Will catch up tomorrow.

[Eccles]

So the point is what?

First, we have to make a conscious decision to get out of our self-imposed prisons created by the disappointments of our past (Mitch).

Thank you all for sharing those insights. I've enjoyed reading them this morning.

It occurs to me that prison breaks are dangerous. It's not just the escaping part, but the tricky business of trying to function on the outside, on the street where different rules apply and it seems like everyone expects you to mess up and get caught eventually. In prison, you at least have some idea what to expect every day, when to get up, when to eat, and when it's lights out.

Walter Sobchak: "Nihilists! Fuck me. I mean, say what you want about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos." ~ "The Big Lebowski."

We all live according to a certain ethos - something we don't have to think about all the time. Prison provides this for some ... in "the system." Of course, the prisons you're talking about are ones in which the walls and bars are fashioned inside of us, but what I'm suggesting is that living free outside that prison can seem a daunting prospect. After all, if a guy like Butchie has understood himself in certain terms for most of his life, being free of those terms and that self-definition can seem to ego a lot like dying, and that's a scary deal. The thing is, Butchie doesn't go through it alone. He has Kai looking out for him. When he has his breakthrough with regard to not wanting to use the herion he just scores, he says, "I think it's off me." Kai gives him someone to tell that to - someone who literally holds his hand. Besides Kai, Meyer has been trying to help, Ramon has been keeping his eye on him, Shaun refuses to give up on him, Freddie comes all the way from Hawaii, and Bill is there if he needs him.

Practically the first thing that happens to Butchie after he thinks his drug habit "is off him" is he finds himself in a crises which normally would have sent him straight to a needle and a spoon. (After all, there's private money to be made by keeping people in prison, so prisons don't like to just let you go without making sure there's lots and lots of easy ways to get back inside.)

The above isn't intended as a response to your interesting observations, really, but is just some appreciative palaver occasioned by them. I'm thankful you're here.

[Cissy]

Hello!

I too want to say great to see you here Eccles! Hope you hang around!


"Time to get back in the game Mitch Yost".

"What do you want Butchie Yost".

"Cissy Yost are you sitting in your kitchen in your house on 10th Street thinking about..."

(Above) Joe's conversation with John in the truck in ep 1, "Don't know Butchie Yost. Mitch Yost I heard of."

"Time to get back in the game Link Stark"

Shaun's last name, Kai's, Bill's, Ramon's, Dickstein's, Jerri's, Cass's not used by John.

Line them up, the last names to the non last names and what is there?

I see the folks who need support, the last names, who's 'recovery' will only support themselves and the non last names they are involved with.

I'm terrible at math, and don't even like it, but isn't that kind of like an algebra equation?
   
Great to see everyone who's posting here!

Where are the conversations?