JohnFromCincinnati.net

Here is a place to seek the answers to things that have been eating at you for three years now.  Together we can find our way.

This question was posed to me:  What was the line "What do you want Butchie Yost" all about?  Why that question is only addressed to Butchie, no one else? What is it about Butchie that John wants to hear only from him? Etc

I have no idea.

Any thoughts?

Interesting questions...

"What do you want Butchie Yost?"

First, I think it's important that John uses his last name "Yost".  I don't remember him addressing or referring to anyone else by their last name...  For example:  "Work here, Cass."  "Shawn will soon be gone." 

Butchie followed in his fathers' footsteps and had big shoes... or a big board  ;)... to fill.  Did he ever feel like he had a choice?  Maybe Mitch Yost was always withdrawn from the family after his accident so it was up to Butchie to bring honor back to the family name.  Did Butchie go into surfing to get his fathers' attention and approval?  But, like any teenager, he rebelled and ended up changing the sport forever.  If this was his hearts' desire... his true calling... why did he drown himself in drugs and nearly kill himself?

And let us not forget... Cissy had a hand in shaping how her son turned out (so sorry for the terrible pun... or maybe now  ;D ) and that experience did have its impact.  Maybe even stunted his emotional growth since it was never dealt with open and honestly.

I don't think Butchie ever felt like he had a choice.  Even to the point of the girlfriend he loved deeply getting pregnant, and what does he do?  She's ready to give birth and he's living in a dumpster in Mexico.  That's not a place one resides when they see themselves at having other options.

"What do you want Butchie Yost?"

Did anyone ever even ask him that before?  Did he ever even ask it of himself? 

By asking Butchie to think about his future and what he wanted it to be like, it gave Butchie permission to take some control...  exert some personal power... over the course his life would take.  That simple question gave him a choice he never had before.

"What do you want Butchie Yost?"

And what do you want?

Quote from: Waxon on June 22, 2010, 11:33:03 PM
This question was posed to me:  What was the line "What do you want Butchie Yost" all about?  Why that question is only addressed to Butchie, no one else? What is it about Butchie that John wants to hear only from him? Etc

I have no idea.

Any thoughts?

My first thought is to thank you for posting this and drawing my attention to this thread. I was wondering which thread might be best for this sort of discussion, and abracadabra, here it is.

I recall the conversation Link and Tina had about Butchie in which Tina basically says that he used to ignore her at parties, and Link explains that if Butchie is at a party and talks to everybody but one person, it's that one person he really wants to meet. In other words, even though Butchie might be a celebrity people want to get close to, if he sees someone he really wants to meet, he doesn't feel confident enough, wanted enough, to walk up and introduce himself. It makes me wonder if Butchie had ever asked himself what it is he wanted. Would he dismiss even the hint of such a question as simply setting himself up for another disappointment? You know ... him bein' such a fuck-up and all. Is him "being a fuck-up and all" a condition which serves as an excuse for him not to experience even greater pain by actually trying to answer the question and identify what he wants?

Then I remember what the physician said at the backyard half-pipe when he asked Butchie why he thought he was "ineligible" to experience what had gone on. As I recall the scene the question had an impact on Butchie. Here's a smart guy - a doctor no less - telling him that a fuck-up though he may be, he may still be eligible for joy.

My first thoughts on the subject.

This is fun! Thanks.

"He's in Number F." (Ramon.)

;D

Quote from: SaveJFC Admin on June 23, 2010, 12:01:16 AM
Interesting questions...


By asking Butchie to think about his future and what he wanted it to be like, it gave Butchie permission to take some control...  exert some personal power... over the course his life would take.  That simple question gave him a choice he never had before.

I think so, too.

I often think of the first time we see Butchie and Shaun together at the motel. Surely there is a huge part of Butchie that wants to attend his only son's first ever surfing contest (or whatever they call it). And yet, he reacts angrily to the idea. That's not for him. He can't have that. It pisses him off that anyone would even suggest it.

Over on the poetry thread, sven2 responded to a post of mine:

Eccles, first about Cass's camera. I think that no one, besides the creator is able to see the world without any preconception unless they are 2-3 years old, (even then the life of the heart has pains and memories). And the creator in this case might be a power so many times removed from the human existence and indifferent to see the reality that way. So, who's seeing the world from the camera? Not us. Just a side thought though.  

Thanks. I suppose there are "preconceptions" in the sense of memory telling us what something is, and then there is all the stuff we attach to it - feelings, expectations, demands, resentments. I'm thinking of Cass's camera in this latter sense.

Here's an example of what I mean. When Cissy shows up at the motel ready as always for a fight (I still love Cissy), Ramon says to Barry: "Let me avoid this woman's tone." I love the scene which follows in which Cissy sort of bounces around unable to find anyone to return her anger and negativity.  As you remember, Butchie and Kai are are in his room, "Number F," where a breakthrough has taken place insofar as, having scored some heroin, he does not use it ... he does not want to use it. When Kai and he leave his room after the breakthrough, the first person Butchie sees (all ready and itching for a fight) is mother-dearest, perhaps the chief source of his explosive, self-destructive anger. And yet, despite her tone, Butchie just looks at his mother evenly. He doesn't return her sharp tone. He just sees her and speaks with her without a hint of anger, as if he doesn't need to define the present moment between them in terms of their past conflicts. It's in that sense I think Butchie begins to see the world in Cass' camera.

Or not.

;D


 

Great answers - and you really got me thinking.

You know, I kinda think that question is the whole point of John's visit.  Butchie is kind of the central character - the one we identify with the most - the one that is most followed in the story. In a sense we are Butchie Yost - or, at least Butchie is the chosen one to represent us all

(Aren't we all (mankind) just a bunch of "dumb surfers" who have fucked our lives up?)

In this sense, the purpose of John's visit (according to Milch) was to ask us "What do you want?"

God (at least the New Testament God) has always left our fate up to us in this way.

When John was riding in the van with Joe (episode 1) and Butchie's name came up, John immediately said "What do you want?" as if he was programmed to say that:  

Vietnam Joe: You comfy-cozy sweat-pea? Slip you a mickey and then forget to roll you--typical beaner behavior.
John: Some things I know, and some things I don't.
Vietnam Joe: Tell me something you know.
John: The end is near.
Vietnam Joe: Huh! Feel that way half the time myself.
John: Mitch Yost should get back in the game.
Vietnam Joe: I don't know Mitch Yost.
John: I should have a good health plan, I see Mitch Yost again.
Vietnam Joe: Butchie Yost I know. Flops in that shithouse on 7th.
John: What do you want?
Vietnam Joe: What do you mean?
John: Some things I know, and some things I don't.
Vietnam Joe: I'll drop you at Butchie's. He may know where Mitch is. Get you your health coverage. Then I'm gonna role a fuckin' fat one. (Vietnam Joe slaps a ball cap on John's head.)

and when John arrives at Butchie's door:

(Butchie's room. Knocking.)
John: (from outside) What do you want, Butchie Yost? (Butchie spies out the peephole and sees John.)
Butchie: (speaking through the door) I want to see some dope coming out of your pockets. Or my $2300.
(John produces a wad of cash from his pocket. Butchie opens the door, moves out quickly and looks suspiciously around.)
Here I am. Eyes to see the sunset loaded. And just flew off the handle with your people. What a fucking jerk. Let's go call the ice-cream man and tell him I'm sorry.  (He takes John inside)

What do you want, Butchie Yost?  is God asking us what we want - save the world or not.  

And wouldn't we (as a society) respond about the same way Butchie does by saying "just give me some dope or money and we'll be fine..."  

We are the ones who are not used to being asked what we want.

Just a thought.

Follow up thought:

Not to be overlooked is the fact that John gives Butchie the cash.  A demonstration that he can deliver...

I totally didn't get any of that before!  Great insight, Wax! 

I have a clear memory of John asking Butchie on the pier but you are right, it was the second thing John did after he arrived.  #1 go see Mitch.  #2 Ask Butchie what he wants.

So the point is what?

First, we have to make a conscious decision to get out of our self-imposed prisons created by the disappointments of our past (Mitch).

Second, we need to ask ourselves, honestly, what we really want our future to be.  Not what others want, or what little we think we deserve...  but what we really want...  what will make us happy...  what will make us feel wholly ourselves.

So, if that is steps #1 and #2... What is step #3?

Step 3: Communicate steps 1 and 2 with each other - (cave drawings), (the man at the wall), (the circles and line on the wall), (The internet is huge), (symbolism)...

BTW - Great to see Eccles here!  Hope he will visit often.

Step 4 has me stumped, though!

Anyone?....

Quote from: Waxon on June 24, 2010, 12:31:45 AM
Step 3: Communicate steps 1 and 2 with each other - (cave drawings), (the man at the wall), (the circles and line on the wall), (The internet is huge), (symbolism)...

Hummm...

If steps #1 and #2 are the beginning steps for the individual, than maybe Step #3 (and Step #4 ?) is doing the same for the community.

Step #3:  Consciously letting go of the trap of the mutual negative experiences that were shared in the past.  i.e., seeing people for who they are now (something JOHN is great at). 

Step #4:  Re-establishing a group identity/purpose based on shared desires for the future.

Perhaps part of the process lies in our children (the next generation)  

"Shaunie Yost!"

Have to go, now.  Will catch up tomorrow.

Quote from: SaveJFC Admin on June 24, 2010, 12:21:58 AM


So the point is what?

First, we have to make a conscious decision to get out of our self-imposed prisons created by the disappointments of our past (Mitch).

Thank you all for sharing those insights. I've enjoyed reading them this morning.

It occurs to me that prison breaks are dangerous. It's not just the escaping part, but the tricky business of trying to function on the outside, on the street where different rules apply and it seems like everyone expects you to mess up and get caught eventually. In prison, you at least have some idea what to expect every day, when to get up, when to eat, and when it's lights out.

Walter Sobchak: "Nihilists! Fuck me. I mean, say what you want about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos." ~ "The Big Lebowski."

We all live according to a certain ethos - something we don't have to think about all the time. Prison provides this for some ... in "the system." Of course, the prisons you're talking about are ones in which the walls and bars are fashioned inside of us, but what I'm suggesting is that living free outside that prison can seem a daunting prospect. After all, if a guy like Butchie has understood himself in certain terms for most of his life, being free of those terms and that self-definition can seem to ego a lot like dying, and that's a scary deal. The thing is, Butchie doesn't go through it alone. He has Kai looking out for him. When he has his breakthrough with regard to not wanting to use the herion he just scores, he says, "I think it's off me." Kai gives him someone to tell that to - someone who literally holds his hand. Besides Kai, Meyer has been trying to help, Ramon has been keeping his eye on him, Shaun refuses to give up on him, Freddie comes all the way from Hawaii, and Bill is there if he needs him.

Practically the first thing that happens to Butchie after he thinks his drug habit "is off him" is he finds himself in a crises which normally would have sent him straight to a needle and a spoon. (After all, there's private money to be made by keeping people in prison, so prisons don't like to just let you go without making sure there's lots and lots of easy ways to get back inside.)

The above isn't intended as a response to your interesting observations, really, but is just some appreciative palaver occasioned by them. I'm thankful you're here.

Hello!

I too want to say great to see you here Eccles! Hope you hang around!


"Time to get back in the game Mitch Yost".

"What do you want Butchie Yost".

"Cissy Yost are you sitting in your kitchen in your house on 10th Street thinking about..."

(Above) Joe's conversation with John in the truck in ep 1, "Don't know Butchie Yost. Mitch Yost I heard of."

"Time to get back in the game Link Stark"

Shaun's last name, Kai's, Bill's, Ramon's, Dickstein's, Jerri's, Cass's not used by John.

Line them up, the last names to the non last names and what is there?

I see the folks who need support, the last names, who's 'recovery' will only support themselves and the non last names they are involved with.

I'm terrible at math, and don't even like it, but isn't that kind of like an algebra equation?
   
Great to see everyone who's posting here!

Where are the conversations?

Great observation, Cissy.  

John says last names of people as though he had them on a list.  Would it be safe to say that these are the people he was sent here to engage with and the others, as Eccles stated, are "the people surrounding them?"

Mitch, Cissy and Butchie are "broken" in various ways.  John plants a seed of rebirth in them - Their fruit will plant more seeds.  Link has apparently been chosen as the farmer - using his skills to cultivate the orchard.  

Yes, that is a tie to the Joe Strummer - Johnny Appleseed theme song.  

But Eccles thoughts on the "prisons"

We all live according to a certain ethos - something we don't have to think about all the time. Prison provides this for some ... in "the system." Of course, the prisons you're talking about are ones in which the walls and bars are fashioned inside of us, but what I'm suggesting is that living free outside that prison can seem a daunting prospect. After all, if a guy like Butchie has understood himself in certain terms for most of his life, being free of those terms and that self-definition can seem to ego a lot like dying, and that's a scary deal. The thing is, Butchie doesn't go through it alone. He has Kai looking out for him. When he has his breakthrough with regard to not wanting to use the herion he just scores, he says, "I think it's off me." Kai gives him someone to tell that to - someone who literally holds his hand. Besides Kai, Meyer has been trying to help, Ramon has been keeping his eye on him, Shaun refuses to give up on him, Freddie comes all the way from Hawaii, and Bill is there if he needs him.


made me think of the following line from that song:

"Not drinking from the well - locked in the factory"

The seeds John plants are to help his subjects break out of those factory walls.  I guess, in a sense, that is the fruit.

What do you think?

Good to learn more about JFC from our our own crowd!

Cissy, there are some concentric waves (like from a pebble thrown in water), you are right, the ripple gradually reaches more distant waters, as John's visit is reaching more people in the show.

I am not sure, Waxon, that Linc is a "farmer" as you say.

That is one other question that bothers me for some time now. Why, if that's not only for the purpose of developing the plot in the desired direction, Linc is supposed to come up, he is seemingly under the least stress, or better, under the least influence from John? Am I mistaken? Is there some transformation he went through I've  missed? Linc as one of the powers that broke Butchie's back, and as such, he is the one responsible to help restore the links? (No pun)

That and the scene where Linc and Tina meet at the pier and Tina states that her wish is "to strike it big", after that they walk away happily. That scene always rubbed me wrong.

Any ideas?

Quote from: Waxon on June 24, 2010, 10:52:49 PM

made me think of the following line from that song:

"Not drinking from the well - locked in the factory"

The seeds John plants are to help his subjects break out of those factory walls.  I guess, in a sense, that is the fruit.

What do you think?

I think it's time to hear the full version of the song...

Joe Strummer "Johnny Appleseed" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pYwPc6UNmo#)

Quote from: Sven2 on June 25, 2010, 10:33:56 AM

That is one other question that bothers me for some time now. Why, if that's not only for the purpose of developing the plot in the desired direction, Linc is supposed to come up, he is seemingly under the least stress, or better, under the least influence from John? Am I mistaken? Is there some transformation he went through I've  missed? Linc as one of the powers that broke Butchie's back, and as such, he is the one responsible to help restore the links? (No pun)

That and the scene where Linc and Tina meet at the pier and Tina states that her wish is "to strike it big", after that they walk away happily. That scene always rubbed me wrong.

Any ideas?

In my opinion, Linc and Tina each had unique and intimate relationships with the Yosts and each was always an outsider.  They both fully understood the Yost lifestyle, business and dynamics but neither were allowed full entrance into the family.

And so they each had a unique experience with the Yosts that no other person could understand but each other.  They are soul mates.

I think what changed Linc was his visceral experience of romantic love with Tina that really changed him.  After that, he had to try to rationally and practically make sense of it.  Thus his talk with JOHN sitting on the ground outside Butchie's apartment.  Linc needs to find an intellectual way of understanding what his heart already knows.  Tina's acceptance and caring for him as well as what he had seen happening to others around him in the wake of JOHN changed him.


(Cut back to the motel parking lot as Linc and John are still sitting together on the pavement.)

Linc: So... I'm the guy that every time you see, you tell the end is near.

John: You're Linc Stark. You should get in the game.

Linc: Like Mitch Yost?

John: Mitch Yost should get back in the game.

Linc: So I've never been in the game?

John: If my words are yours, can you hear my father?

Linc: Let's say I can.

John: Let's say the zeros and ones in Cass' camera help you hear my father's word.

Linc: Cass and I go back.

John: Let's say you and Cass go back, Linc Stark. Let's say, in my father's word, in Cass' camera, the internet is big. 9/11 is big. But not every towelhead is eradicated.

Linc: Let's say I don't follow.

John: Let's say, without Cass' camera, "big" and "huge" won't mean dick. Getting dusted won't be an issue.

Linc: (pauses) This is me grabbing my balls and jumping here, John.

John: Grab your jump-balls, Linc.

Linc: You use my words, and when you speak them, if I listen right, I can hear your father?

John: Yes Linc.

John: If you are then end, I am near you.

John: Yes Linc.

Linc: Without Cass' camera, whatever the fuck that is, we're all toast?

John: You're all going to be toast. We're coming 9/11/14.

Linc: Fuck me, John.

John: Fuck you Linc.

Linc: (We're watching now through Cass' camera) Is there any special purpose to us burning our ass-cheeks off on this asphalt?

John: I don't know Butchie instead.

I've just popped by my office (I don't have a computer at home) on my way to run some errands and I enjoyed reading the latest posts. Thanks, Cissy (and all 'yall)  for the questions. The discussions? I look forward to them. In fact, I'm going to read again what you all wrote and think about it over the weekend.

Later.

Quote from: Waxon on June 24, 2010, 10:52:49 PM



made me think of the following line from that song:

"Not drinking from the well - locked in the factory"

By the way, I enjoyed Michael Pollan's "The Botany of Desire" so much last summer I read it twice more. The first chapter, in which he traces the routes of the original Johnny Appleseed, is wonderful. I had Joe's song in my head throughout.

Quote from: SaveJFC Admin on June 25, 2010, 12:54:55 PM

Quote from: Sven2 on June 25, 2010, 10:33:56 AM

That is one other question that bothers me for some time now. Why, if that's not only for the purpose of developing the plot in the desired direction, Linc is supposed to come up, he is seemingly under the least stress, or better, under the least influence from John? Am I mistaken? Is there some transformation he went through I've  missed? Linc as one of the powers that broke Butchie's back, and as such, he is the one responsible to help restore the links? (No pun)

That and the scene where Linc and Tina meet at the pier and Tina states that her wish is "to strike it big", after that they walk away happily. That scene always rubbed me wrong.

Any ideas?

In my opinion, Linc and Tina each had unique and intimate relationships with the Yosts and each was always an outsider.  They both fully understood the Yost lifestyle, business and dynamics but neither were allowed full entrance into the family.

And so they each had a unique experience with the Yosts that no other person could understand but each other.  They are soul mates.

I think what changed Linc was his visceral experience of romantic love with Tina that really changed him.  After that, he had to try to rationally and practically make sense of it.  Thus his talk with JOHN sitting on the ground outside Butchie's apartment.  Linc needs to find an intellectual way of understanding what his heart already knows.  Tina's acceptance and caring for him as well as what he had seen happening to others around him in the wake of JOHN changed him.

Interesting thoughts about Linc. I recall that he was the first person to whom John spoke: "The end is near." Linc does provide the link (pun intended) between the Yost family and the public interested in them. He has been the Yost Family Image Maker, selling the Family Magic for years. Funnily enough - the purpose of the parade and "the pageant in the barn" was to demystify and play down the miraculous. His mission now as an image maker is to simply present the family itself and allow that to be the story.

I enjoyed what SaveJFC said about Linc and Tina. I think all of that was going on abd I also think Linc was mightily rocked by what he could not explain - Shaun was dead when he came out of the water. I think this served as a powerful catalyst for change with Linc and certainly disturbed the surface and broke up the ice, perhaps making his relationship with Tina possible.

Quote from: SaveJFC Admin on June 25, 2010, 12:54:55 PM


Linc: You use my words, and when you speak them, if I listen right, I can hear your father?

John: Yes Linc.

John: If you are then end, I am near you.

John: Yes Linc.

One of the things I enjoy about the series is how Milch and Company left the question of precisely who and what John was up to the observer. His last name is "Monad" ("sounds French"), but that is simply a fact and not necessarily a clue since I've never understood the series to be a puzzle in need of solving. Sometimes while watching the series, I thought of John as an angel. That worked with the whole "monad" thing, in a way, if not entirely. Note: I never said "that's what or who John is, but merely that I thought of him that way. Other folks no doubt had different images which worked for them. Later on, I came to think of John as pure, undivided consciousness incarnate in the body of a young Chet Baker.

"Must I say for me?"  8)

I was thinking again about how Linc described Butchie years ago avoiding the one person at a party he would most like to meet. While it's true that Butchie's mother pushes people away, that's not really what Linc is describing in Butchie himself, and his behavior in this respect puts me in mind of Mitch.

Mitch, I say? Yup. Mitch. One of my favorite scenes is when Mitch confronts Cissy in their home in the penultimate episode, takes all the anger and negativity she throws at him, puts up with her childishly kicking him and blowing forbidden smoke in his face, and says: "Give me the weight." Mitch convinced himself that his tree-house was his sanctuary but Butchie correctly identified it as his "fort." After seeking a spiritual experience, he finally gets one and thinks it's cancer. After years of confusing non-attachment with detachment, floating above his family in his tree-house-fort-sanctuary, his experience ends up bringing him back down to earth and into the loving embrace of his family. I am coming to the opinion that Butchie learned to flee from Daddy-Dearest.

Eccles wrote:

"I thought of John as an angel. (...) Later on, I came to think of John as pure, undivided consciousness incarnate in the body of a young Chet Baker.
"Must I say for me?"   8)"

Eccles, it seems to me that "undivided consciousness" includes dark, self-destructive or even murderous, the whole chaos of the world with its death and  inflicted suffering. I often thought that consciousness without compassion is plain curiosity, scientific knowledge that may lead sometimes astray. Your use of the epithet "pure" separates "lovingkind" consciousness from the cold observation of life and death by some demigod.

I thought that John is sometimes a teacher and at other times a student, (Tao way). For example, he for the first time experiences life on Earth in human body. He is visibly in pain after "Vato" cuts him, and that is a stark contrast to the second "knife" incident, in the scene of "interrogation" by Bill Jacks, where he doesn't show any physical distress.

I'm not making myself very clear, I know. I love the next Barry's phrase: "Isn't "for me" understood?"  8)

May I use a quote from a JFC related article in regard to Eccles great observation of Mitch's personality?

"He's an egocentric, New Age whiner. I'm sure many people when confronted with a miracle would ascribe it to their own "specialness," but he went there faster than anyone else. Mitch resembles a good 80% of the aging men I've met since moving to Southern California. ("Can you feel the chakras, baby?") That's a real compliment to Bruce Greenwood and the show's writers, but damn, if I don't want to smack Mitch in the face every time he floats away or starts whining about his blessed knee. I'd buy his "soul surfer" status a bit more if he weren't so bloody self-righteous about it."

It's perhaps harsh, though nothing scares me more than people that act from the position of "righteousness", that in most cases is passionate cruelty to anyone different, or not smart enough, or one who has other beliefs, etc. When Mitch, not able to find the way to calm Cissy in her "temper tantrum" condescendingly promises "I will pray for you", that in my (personal) view is his total failure as a husband.
Of course, he ultimately "landed".  ;)

A quote is from:
http://www.tvsquad.com/2007/07/02/john-from-cincinnati-his-visit-day-3/ (http://www.tvsquad.com/2007/07/02/john-from-cincinnati-his-visit-day-3/)

Quote from: Sven2 on June 28, 2010, 08:45:05 PM
Eccles wrote:

"I thought of John as an angel. (...) Later on, I came to think of John as pure, undivided consciousness incarnate in the body of a young Chet Baker.
"Must I say for me?"   8)"

Eccles, it seems to me that "undivided consciousness" includes dark, self-destructive or even murderous, the whole chaos of the world with its death and  inflicted suffering. I often thought that consciousness without compassion is plain curiosity, scientific knowledge that may lead sometimes astray. Your use of the epithet "pure" separates "lovingkind" consciousness from the cold observation of life and death by some demigod.

Yes, I very much hope so.

Quote from: Sven2 on June 28, 2010, 08:45:05 PM


I thought that John is sometimes a teacher and at other times a student, (Tao way). For example, he for the first time experiences life on Earth in human body. He is visibly in pain after "Vato" cuts him, and that is a stark contrast to the second "knife" incident, in the scene of "interrogation" by Bill Jacks, where he doesn't show any physical distress.

I'm not making myself very clear, I know. I love the next Barry's phrase: "Isn't "for me" understood?"  8)

I often found watching John experiencing "life on Earth in a human body" very funny, one of my favorite moments being in the First Episode when Vietnam Joe calls to him from inside the bushes, and John, not sure which direction the voice is coming from, looks up. I laugh every time. For John, that could very well be the direction. (I sometimes do the same thing when someone calls my name.)

He seems to give us back our words and the emotional intensity we give him (Butchie's adrenaline rush on his way to "fight" his dad in Ep. 1., the Vato's attitude and emotions in Ep. 4.), stripped of everything that isn't love.

Quote from: Sven2 on June 28, 2010, 08:50:29 PM
May I use a quote from a JFC related article in regard to Eccles great observation of Mitch's personality?

"He's an egocentric, New Age whiner. I'm sure many people when confronted with a miracle would ascribe it to their own "specialness," but he went there faster than anyone else. Mitch resembles a good 80% of the aging men I've met since moving to Southern California. ("Can you feel the chakras, baby?") That's a real compliment to Bruce Greenwood and the show's writers, but damn, if I don't want to smack Mitch in the face every time he floats away or starts whining about his blessed knee. I'd buy his "soul surfer" status a bit more if he weren't so bloody self-righteous about it."

"Where were you?" (Shaun Yost, to his Grampa.)

I had the exact same reaction. It was fun to see him moving beyond this as it seems to me he does in the course of the series, however unwillingly at first.

The fact that I have far more questions about this series than answers is something which, far from bothering me, has turned out to be a source of delight. Here's another question:

When Vietnam Joe drives up with John in the front seat of the van and glances over at Ramon and Meyer and proclaims: "The three amigos," was he including John among them, as if "wherever two are three are gathered together" John is in their midst even if they don't know it ... type of thing?

I have to work at home this afternoon. Later, all.

"Work here, Eccles."

;)

Took a quick look at that and Joe actually says: "The three stooges" as he drives up to Ramon and Meyer.  Meyer takes a look around for the "third" but seems to know who he is dealing with and leaves it alone.  

I put the image on the facebook wall: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=283707286528 (http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=283707286528)

(http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=194789&o=all&op=1&view=all&subj=283707286528&aid=-1&id=100000697891177/)

As Joe's van approaches, Meyer reminds Ramon that the Snug may no longer be used for Joes's underground railroad.  This leads me to believe Meyer, Ramon and Joe have had a number of dealings together.  I think without meaning to, Joe has included himself in the trio.  Take a look at the side view mirror of the van.

Quote from: Waxon on June 30, 2010, 12:13:39 AM
Took a quick look at that and Joe actually says: "The three stooges" as he drives up to Ramon and Meyer.  Meyer takes a look around for the "third" but seems to know who he is dealing with and leaves it alone.  

As Joe's van approaches, Meyer reminds Ramon that the Snug may no longer be used for Joes's underground railroad.  This leads me to believe Meyer, Ramon and Joe have had a number of dealings together.  I think without meaning to, Joe has included himself in the trio.  Take a look at the side view mirror of the van.

"Stooges" it is. Thanks. I found what you wrote very helpful.

Palaka and Freddy  relationship always makes me wonder about "how" and "why" when I watch JFC (didn't count how many times, probably more than 20, :D)

Palaka is seemingly a "constant victim" of Freddy, being beaten, humiliated, etc. Why is he so devote, loyal, is that an element of psychological dependency, when for example, a woman stays with an abusive husband?

I hope Eccles has an interesting interpretation!

Quote from: Sven2 on July 01, 2010, 10:43:01 AM
Palaka and Freddy  relationship always makes me wonder about "how" and "why" when I watch JFC (didn't count how many times, probably more than 20, :D)

Palaka is seemingly a "constant victim" of Freddy, being beaten, humiliated, etc. Why is he so devote, loyal, is that an element of psychological dependency, when for example, a woman stays with an abusive husband?

I hope Eccles has an interesting interpretation!

I'll give this some thought. My first reaction is to wonder exactly how Freddy would show affection if he wanted to, and what Palaka would expect from a father figure. Perhaps each gives the other precisely what is expected. I'd also wonder about whether it might be worth contrasting Palaka's relation to Freddy with John's relation to his Father. For example, Palaka tries showing that he hears Freddy's words - "don't do heavy lifting with light equipment" - even if he can't recite them in quite the right order in time. ("We do not remember my father's words.")

Later.

"Three Stooges" sound clip:

http://www.johnfromcincinnati.net/sound/3stooges.mp3 (http://www.johnfromcincinnati.net/sound/3stooges.mp3)

Quote from: SaveJFC Admin on July 03, 2010, 01:12:17 PM
"Three Stooges" sound clip:

:D  Thanks! I love Jim Beaver.

As for Eccles, , more questions arise for me  than get answered, and those mostly  "stay down where it's wounded" (not the exact quote I think).
Here are some "equations".

Symbolism of widely used numbers. Room 24 (someone said on HBO BB it's for the 24 news feed or "24" with "Jack Bauer". Anyone is of the same opinion?

Room 45, where Ramon feeds everyone. Why45?

And the "king of questions": We are coming 9-11-14.
I know people searched in the Bible, (I did that myself, just a bit) and couldn't come to an agreement where is it from.

I don't consider every comma and an adjective in JFC a sacred word in Milch's bible, however the numbers should have significance  beyond arithmetics.

Quote from: Sven2 on July 06, 2010, 09:11:43 AM
As for Eccles, , more questions arise for me  than get answered, and those mostly  "stay down where it's wounded" (not the exact quote I think).
Here are some "equations".

Symbolism of widely used numbers. Room 24 (someone said on HBO BB it's for the 24 news feed or "24" with "Jack Bauer". Anyone is of the same opinion?

Room 45, where Ramon feeds everyone. Why45?

And the "king of questions": We are coming 9-11-14.
I know people searched in the Bible, (I did that myself, just a bit) and couldn't come to an agreement where is it from.

I don't consider every comma and an adjective in JFC a sacred word in Milch's bible, however the numbers should have significance  beyond arithmetics.

I'll keep thinking about all this, sven. Because I think David Milch, given his past, is presenting concepts which, as Huxley would put it, are "perennial" and appear in most spiritual traditions, I've avoided being too specific since I don't think the author wishes us to be so.)

I've tended to agree with those interpretations of "24" you mentioned. (This became clear to me during John's interrogation.)

The series began in 2007. This means that 2014 would be seven years from John's visit. (The imagery of "9-11" seems obvious.) In the Biblical tradition, a seven year cycle is not uncommon - hence the whole business of a sabbatical every seven years when all debts still outstanding must be forgiven and all those suffering under economic servitude must be released. In other words, every seven years makes a new beginning (symbolized, of course, by the seven days of creation - genesis - beginning). My take.

I'm still not sure about "Room 45."

Quote from: Sven2 on July 06, 2010, 09:11:43 AM


Room 45, where Ramon feeds everyone. Why45?

Here's what I've come up with so far. The episode titles were as follows: "His Visit, Day 1," His Visit, Day 2," and so on until Day 9.

(1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9 = 45) Perhaps Ramon's care for the people in Room 45 is sort of what John's visit "adds up" to.

Quote from: Eccles on July 07, 2010, 09:23:37 AM

Quote from: Sven2 on July 06, 2010, 09:11:43 AM


Room 45, where Ramon feeds everyone. Why45?

Here's what I've come up with so far. The episode titles were as follows: "His Visit, Day 1," His Visit, Day 2," and so on until Day 9.

(1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9 = 45) Perhaps Ramon's care for the people in Room 45 is sort of what John's visit "adds up" to.

Or it could simply be the number of room Milch stayed at the hotel! (kidding), or the conference room where some fulfilling meeting took place.

Thanks for the 9-11-14. Seven in Judaism holds very special meaning, as the number created by G-d, etc., and even more significance 7 has in Kabbalah.

Here is the simple article for the interested:
http://judaism.about.com/library/3_askrabbi_o/bl_simmons_seven.htm (http://judaism.about.com/library/3_askrabbi_o/bl_simmons_seven.htm)

I completely missed the 7, never liked mathematics,  :-[ :D

Quote from: Sven2 on July 07, 2010, 09:36:31 AM


I completely missed the 7, never liked mathematics,  :-[ :D

Thanks for the link. I was horrible at math in school because by the time the teacher was on to the fourth step of a problem I was still back on "Step One." I guess I didn't dislike math. I disliked how frustrating it was trying to learn math (or anything, really) in that sort of classroom setting. I like math when I'm alone on my own with a pencil and lots of time. (Which isn't to say I'm any good at it.)

Esoteric math used in symbols (by Kabbalists and them) usually is lost on me. Except for being mostly vegetarian and making it a point to prayerfully enjoy the sunrise and sunset every day, I'd never make a good Pythagorean. 

I'm beyond redemption then, not being even a vegetarian, much less a numerologist or Pythagorian.  Some of the Kabbalah  calculations seem to me "relevant" to anything anyone wishes and thus meaningless, just entertaining.

Sunrise and sunset, good way to mark a day. I am going to enjoy the noon sun above the ocean now. Prayer of the summer it is.

Good having you around, Eccles.

Quote from: Sven2 on July 07, 2010, 10:02:58 AM
I'm beyond redemption then, not being even a vegetarian, much less a numerologist or Pythagorian.  Some of the Kabbalah  calculations seem to me "relevant" to anything anyone wishes and thus meaningless, just entertaining.

Sunrise and sunset, good way to mark a day. I am going to enjoy the noon sun above the ocean now. Prayer of the summer it is.

Good having you around, Eccles.

Thanks. My favorite meal is steak and French fries enjoyed with beer which I'm seriously considering having for dinner tonight since I've been invited out to the club. I've become a social drinker only (beer and wine in the company of friends) and a social meat eater (only in the company of friends). When I'm home by myself at mealtime, which is the case most days, I stick to hippie food. I really quite enjoy it. (I don't attach any "redemptive" qualities to my hippie food. It just makes me feel good. ;D)

Sunrise and sunset are my two favorite times of the day. The noonday sun above the ocean probably ranks right up there but it's been too long since I've been near the ocean - far too long for this Maritimer.

It's good to be here.

Numbers and symbolism abound for sure.  I believe most are very intentional and thought out by Milch.  And while I don't know if they always have specific impact on the plot - its just part "story-telling". 

24 - the demons in each of our room 24's are with us 24 hours a day even though we may think otherwise. 

2011 - 7 years - I think Eccles and Sven are right on - very significant number biblically (it seems I have heard the same for Muslim religion)

The numbers in the clouds (Eccles - see the facebook page for the photos)  - I still don't know - other than to support the notion the there is importance in the numbers.   (Milch is a gambler, I suspect)

The titles to the episodes, themselves - used numbers of days - that certainly wasn't an accident.   

Not to mention the significance of 0's and 1's.

Numbers are also the most basic form of symbolism (imo) - symbolism being a central theme of "the story" (spanning DW and JFC)

Numbers can be twisted around to means many different things, of course, but I think if we re-watched the series keeping "the numbers" in mind, we would come across a few things we never noticed before.   

I don't mean to change the subject ( I hope we may have more enlightenment on the numbers question) but I have a burning question that I need to pose.

At this time I can view the following on HBO "On Demand":

Band of Brothers
Entourage
Masterclass
Rome
Bill Maher
Hung
John Adams
The Neistat Brothers
Sex and The City
The Wire
Treme
True Blood
and the Sopranos

Why no Deadwood or JFC?  And what does this say about the possibility of 'Luck" making it to my TV screen?

 

I am pretty much a lazy wastrel these days, I cannot quite remember enough to join in your interesting conversations and I haven't yet gotten around to watching the episodes again. But I am really enjoying reading these posts and I just wanted to let you know that your continuing interest in this show really means a lot to me. Thank you for this.

Quote from: Waxon on July 09, 2010, 12:05:36 AM
I don't mean to change the subject ( I hope we may have more enlightenment on the numbers question) but I have a burning question that I need to pose.

At this time I can view the following on HBO "On Demand":

Band of Brothers
Entourage
Masterclass
Rome
Bill Maher
Hung
John Adams
The Neistat Brothers
Sex and The City
The Wire
Treme
True Blood
and the Sopranos

Why no Deadwood or JFC?  And what does this say about the possibility of 'Luck" making it to my TV screen?
 

Each series on the list falls into a category: Current, Mini-Series, or Series which enjoyed a beginning, a middle, and a finale.  No "Carnivale, No Lucky Louie (thankfully!), and so forth. My take.

~ Pollyanna

Fits and stops and starts.

I don't know about that.  Rome, Soprano's, - no more beginning or ending than Milch's shows - (cut short and all)

I can understand JFC not being there (maybe) , but Deadwood?   It must be more than that.

Has anyone tried asking over on the HBO forums?  I know that right after the switch they were deleting any mention of JFC from any thread it was entered on.  But maybe someone there has an answer for us now?

Quote from: Waxon on July 10, 2010, 11:47:56 PM

Fits and stops and starts.

:D :D ;D

I was so upset when HBO decided not to film another season of Deadwood it took several days for me to accept it with equanimity.

Quote from: Eccles on July 11, 2010, 09:30:34 AM

Quote from: Waxon on July 10, 2010, 11:47:56 PM

Fits and stops and starts.

:D :D ;D

I was so upset when HBO decided not to film another season of Deadwood it took several days for me to accept it with equanimity.

There is Milch's monologue on one of Deadwood DVDs where he talks about the cancellation of Deadwood, mostly looking at his feet, I've read, so angry he is. Would anyone care enough to post the video, or, if it's not possible, tell what was he saying?

The equanimity - I still don't have enough of that calm, thinking about JFC.  :-[

Not meaning to close the discussion, just an observation about the obvious in the numbers of JFC.

10 is Pythagorean symbol of perfection, so being forced to cut the episodes short, the show creators tried to better the odds, bring "the happy outcome", in Bill Jacks words. John's prescience at the end of the parade is that promise: "Dr. Smith comes back from Cincinnati 20 years younger, Cissy is knocked up, Earth keeps Dickstein on retainer", etc.

The combination of 1 and 0 is at work here as well. God as One needs all the Zeroes to complete his task. Thus the humanity and the deity are united. The only way to perfection.

Very abbreviated thoughts, not even correct, I know. I was watching "Oxford Murders", it reminded me of JFC "mathematical"symbolism, as so many things still do.

Too tired to write more. Just want to say, "yes."

Quote from: Sven2 on July 12, 2010, 10:14:14 AM

"Dr. Smith comes back from Cincinnati 20 years younger ... "

One of the things I really enjoyed was watching Dr. Smith struggle with his normal view of the world being turned upside down. Here was a man who at a young age became Mercy Hospital's Head of Internal Medicine. His mother should shep naches. And now, he has resigned and is about to open up a free clinic in a dicey part of town. And yet, he is "so happy."

I loved the scene in which he speaks with a still hallucinating Palaka who is being chilled in a bathtub of ice. He asks himself whether his pride is keeping him from seeing that Palaka gets the best care possible, being embarrassed to show up at the very place he once ran and have to ask an orderly to take over due to loss of privileges. Only his struggle with Freddy in the parking lot forces him to conclude that he is in fact giving Palaka exactly the care needs right then.

In the scene where he is looking over the empty building soon to be his new clinic he gets spooked and hightails it out of there. The day before he had imagined all the praise he might get for this wonderful thing he was about to do. "Not hearing the Hallelujah" Chorus soundtrack in the background felt like a push back on all his good plans. A few minutes later he sees Barry in a very similar state. As it happens, "the Doctor is in" exactly the right situation and place to be of some help.

It's pure speculation, however I think anyone who loved the show and was saddened by it's forced termination, still ponders last John's phrases, trying to envision the future of the IB "unholy family" and their fate. Maybe I should speak for myself only, though.

Anyways, my questions.
Why would Dr.Smith get to be 20 years younger? What would he train Dwayne and Ramon in and for what task? What would merit Mitch getting a shrine built in his honor?

Any thoughts and maybe more questions?

Quote from: Sven2 on July 16, 2010, 12:27:55 PM


Why would Dr.Smith get to be 20 years younger? What would he train Dwayne and Ramon in and for what task? What would merit Mitch getting a shrine built in his honor?

Any thoughts and maybe more questions?

I've tended not to take John's words concerning Dr. Smith literally. I think he begins again and spends the next twenty years as a doctor not rising to the top of his profession or building his career but simply by being what he is: a physician helping those least able to repay him, caring for those who tend to fall between the cracks. I think that the young man shown during John's final voice-over concerning Dr. Smith was supposed to be representative of him, not actually him twenty years younger (and apparantly six inches shorter.)

I heard or read somewhere that Dwayne will help Ramon care for those seeking medical attention for cleft lip or palate. Dr. Smith would help them in this, I think. It could be what he heard the drums say.

Agreed.  Seeing the light can take 20 years off a person.  ;)

But, no telling what Milch was cooking up in his head.  A lot of that last part of the episode is intriguing, though.

Dr Smith comes back 20 years younger from Cincinnati. (We see a young guy siding up to the nurse who was at Shaun's bedside) Cissy gets knocked up. She's bigger than Leona Helmsley. Earth puts Dickstein on retainer. (We see Dickstein and Daphne in a very hot kiss) Daphne keeps his head straight. Jerri meets a slew of new hairlips. My father four-walls Barry's bar. Dr Smith trains Dwayne and Ramon. My father freelances in Cass' Camera.

Thank you, Eccles and Waxon, really, there's no need to see Dr. Smith turned into a college kid. Though Walkara (oh, how very long ago!) wrote hilarious couple of scenes with that young incarnation of Dr. Smith.

It seems that we have the least trouble defining John nature and his goal on Earth. I have to "confess":  :D my questions are not entirely speculative as I  still carry that stubborn hope of seeing the story of John's visit to its end. So any hypothesis and all the discussions are priceless, it could bring more clarity or simply inspire someone to write a scene, wherever it goes and whenever it happens.


No ideas about Mitch and the shrine?

Apologize if that was already answered, I don't remember. Did Austin Nichols have a double/stunt man/professional surfer in the scene of John and Shaun return from "Cincinnati"? Their moves on the water are so beautifully synchronized, it could take your breath away. It takes away mine, even after three years.

I know some are wondering where is our dear friend Eccles. Do not worry, he is well, I saw his post on Deadwood crowd forum, Kokoo's Nest. Hope he would be able to stop by someday...

A question. What do you think have happened (grammar?) with Shaun in "Cincinnati"?

Quote from: Sven2 on September 03, 2010, 10:18:17 AM
I know some are wondering where is our dear friend Eccles. Do not worry, he is well, I saw his post on Deadwood crowd forum, Kokoo's Nest. Hope he would be able to stop by someday...

A question. What do you think have happened (grammar?) with Shaun in "Cincinnati"?

It is nice to be thought of. I've been busy and also have been away on vacation in Atlantic Canada. I'm heading back to work on Monday.

I don't know what David Milch had in mind by "Cincinnati." My guess would be that it refers to a nondual state in which we awaken to the realization of our essential unity and oneness ... type of thing. Whatever "Cincinnati" represents, it seems to be beyond discursiveness and the division of subject-object: Shaun remembers to say things but he doesn't remember his experience. John tells us that we "hear" his fathers words but we do not "remember" them as something from the past because they do not belong in the past but are always and only heard in the present. My guess.

Then again, for "True Blood" fans out there, maybe the fairies have taken Sookie to their version of "Cincinnati." After all, she was offered a "peanut butter and butter sandwich" shortly before leaving.

Must run.

Indeed she was, Eccles!  I, myself, have never had one - but I believe I will tomorrow.  It appears to be the rage.

As for Cincinnati, some great thoughts, Eccles.  It seems so random that it could just be anywhere other than here - meaning outside of our world - or at least, our world of understanding.   Or as you suggested, but its name is irrelevant.  All Shaun seems to remember about it is that "there were some good ones".

Continuing on that thought... John and Link in Ep 10:

Link: If you are the end, then I am near you?
John: Yes, Link


Can anyone explain this line to me?  ( I think, somehow, it speaks to what Cincinnati is)

Quote from: Waxon on September 21, 2010, 01:19:45 AM
Indeed she was, Eccles!  I, myself, have never had one - but I believe I will tomorrow.  It appears to be the rage.

As for Cincinnati, some great thoughts, Eccles.  It seems so random that it could just be anywhere other than here - meaning outside of our world - or at least, our world of understanding.   Or as you suggested, but its name is irrelevant.  All Shaun seems to remember about it is that "there were some good ones".

Continuing on that thought... John and Link in Ep 10:

Link: If you are the end, then I am near you?
John: Yes, Link


Can anyone explain this line to me?  ( I think, somehow, it speaks to what Cincinnati is)

Perhaps a clue is to be found in John's "surname." That a "monad" represents oneness, the unity prior to all division, is I think the case in Greek philosophy, gnosticism, and in the thought of Kant and Leibniz. I believe David Milch had the latter in mind. In Leibnizian thinking the attempt to move beyond Cartesian dualism led to the postulating of a "preestablished harmony." I think that John Monad, who arrives among a family and community divided in a seemingly hopeless way, represents the unity which all things flow out from and back to, like waves, as it were.  I think Milch believes that thinking of ourselves as separate from everything and everyone else is essentially an egoic illusion which has left its mark in all sorts of unpleasant ways throughout human history. In his mind (presumably) any future hope for us is in overcoming the illusion of separateness and isolation in the realization that we are all one family, or even "one body" in the language of St. Paul which he (Milch) employed so powerfully in "Deadwood." John, for whom doors remained a mystery (rather funnily) throughout the series, seems to see things in a unitive way from the perspective of the preestablished harmony. In this view the eventual return to that harmony would be our end, as in our "telos," or purpose.

"Must I say 'for me'? Isn't 'for me' understood?"

Thank you, Eccles, the answer gives plenty.
And raises the question if such an end might be worked on and reached as a result of an intentional act, or is it a simple perpetual dissolution like that of grass turning into humus and rocks ground by wind and water into sands. Or societies and civilizations that disappear completing some learning - successfully or not - to be replaced by new generations, again as naive as newborns.

We all wish you'd stop by more often.

That is a question that was posted on some IMDB board on October 5. I am not sure what is the right answer, so please, give it a thought.
The poster deserves our attention, doesn't he?

"In the second episode during the surf competition {in JFC} and all events surrounding it, there is some really smooth, chill background music playing continuously in the background (bass, drums, keyboard ambiance). Does this track have a title at all, or is it just score written specifically for the episode? I would love to obtain a copy of this track if it exists.."

I will post the answer we'd agree upon on the IMDB,  together with the link to this site. Any interest in JFC has to be encouraged.

"Mother of God Cass/Kai."

Maybe it's the season but I've been thinking about the above quote. I think in this case at least David Milch might have been having some fun with the various "Marys" in the Bible known as those who bear the word.

Kai was a word-bearer insofar as she cared for and looked after the Yost family for all those years. She kept Butchie's boards safe and secure all those years until he might use them again. Cass, whose job according to her boss, Link, was to distract Mitch, takes on a new role as a word-bearer. Those who are watching and waiting first learn of Shaun's safe arrival from "Cincinnati" through her camera which observes it all as a faithful witness.

Wow, a whole LOT of good discussion in this thread!   :)

I do recall David Milch saying that he picked 2014 as John's return year because 7 was a mystic, spiritual number.  At some point, I would like to share with you all my craziest theories about the phenomenon we call "John From Cincinnati", but that will probably require a thread all it's own.

I was thrilled to hear John say that, "WE are coming 9 11 14!!!"

Even in 2007 I was aware of the Mayan calender end date of 2012, and for any of you who brush up to any of the edgy new age "gobbledigook", you might know about the predictions about December 21st, 2012:  they range from armeggedon to Man's ascension to the next dimensional octave.  So I was delighted at the notion of "big and huge" changes coming in that time zone.  :)

Zen, please, feel free to share your thoughts and ideas, take over the whole thread if you wish.
May I, however, point to a contradiction in your Mayan "end of the days"? How late would be John and his team if they were coming here after the cataclysm in 2012, almost two years after? 

I don't know, Department of Motor Vehicles doesn't seem to acknowledge the coming Apocalypse, issuing drivers licenses valid through 2015 now. Naive and nearsighted, huh?  :D

Lol  Ever spend time in the black hole called Motor Vehicles???  You might go in 2012, and leave in 2015!   :D

Yes, I prefer to think the "New Era" begins near and around the 2012 date, and I am not a doomsayer.  I am pathetically optimistic about Mankind's future.  Don't know why.  I also intuit that evolution isn't always a painfully long, drawn-out affair taking thousands and thousands of years.  Sometimes, I would guess, evolution happens in very fast spurts (also possibly painful  8) ).

Yep.  In a nutshell, I think there is a reason all of us here got swept up by JFC so quickly - something more than it being unique and wonderful television.  But in order to keep from being viewed as "certifiable", I will need to lay out a bit of groundwork.  

Promise to do this soon.  :)

Alright.  Here goes. 

It is my contention that John From Cincinnati was (is) more than an unusual TV series loaded with rare and new (for TV) human characters, and dialog which borders on poetry.
 
It is all of that, of course. We all got hooked by that first episode, where Milch told us more about these characters in a one hour episode, than most TV shows pull off in an entire season! And, episode by episode, I was STUNNED!!!  :)  It felt like the Universe had made an HBO TV series JUST FOR ME!!!  I couldn't believe it!  And it escalated weekly!

I remember posting on the HBO JFC BBs, after the Dream Sequence, that "John" had just jumped up an entire dimensional level.  And we all knew it, huh?  We were not in Kansas any more!!  :)

Looking back on that summer, I am drawn to memories:  me repeating dialog in front of family and friends, who finally quit asking what the hell I was saying!

lol ... memories like the moon in that episode where John and Cass go walking out by the Radar Installation, and John shouts at the tiki head "Stare me down?"  Remember that moon?  It was EXACTLY the same phase and appearance outside my home that very night!

So that is how it all went down:  I was absorbed into JFC, obsessed with re-watching every new episode, and still stunned that someone had made a TV show that seemed tailor made for me!

And then I met all of you.  :)

I wasn't alone.  This show impressed a whole lot of other folks.  Ever notice that John either grabbed you completely, or you were absolutely revolted by it?

Let's face it, there were a lot of folks who just couldn't wrap their heads around it.  Others were "dug in" at spiritual levels that made John seem
sacriligeous.  Many others just were not ready for it on any level.  And I was OK with those folks.  This was MY show... lol.

But I came to see this entire "work" as something more than a Milch effort that got gutted early due to internal HBO politics.  I began to see it as a "channeled" offering of Grace.  I began to see it truely coming from "Cincinnati", whether Milch and crew realized it or not. 

Which is apt to get me committed, or certainly ignored, and maybe even laughed at. ;)  I mean, this wasn't like Trekkies dressed up like Spock. 
I really started to think this was all MEANT to be.  So, committed, right?

'Cept I got some evidence.   A little science to aid my argument.  Fringe stuff, I will admit, but enough to keep ME happy at least.  And this is what I will be presenting here, for your perusal. For instance, ever hear of the Princeton Eggs?  :)
 
http://noosphere.princeton.edu/ (http://noosphere.princeton.edu/)

More about that soon.

If I may play Advocatus Diaboli for a moment and ask a question: why is it the show itself didn't last but one season and other HBO shows about vampires and gay werewolves sustain? Not that there's anything wrong with that!

Also (and I've mentioned this before) the show itself in both character and story line resembles a little known flick entitled Brother From Another Planet, (a black humanoid alien crashes on planet Earth) the novel Stranger In A Strange Land (the Martian born human Michael Valentine Smith returns to Earth) and even to some degree The Day the Earth Stood Still (the original 50s b&w film). No surfing in any of those but the parallels are remarkable if you ask me. Just throwing that out there.

OceanFlower:  "Not that there's anything wrong with that!"

Lol...    :)

Well, I am not sure about "Brother", but "Day the Earth Stood Still" is near and dear to my heart.  As for John getting cancelled, it is, I suppose, what I said above.  Only a certain percentage of us were ready for it.  I don't think surfing had anything to do with it.  It called us to at least look at ourselves, and realize how much help we really need from each other.  THAT's not what we Americans expect television to make us think about!  We expect television to make us FORGET about our problems.  We expect television to tell us how to feel.

John threw that crap in the garbage.  It said, here you are, Americans:    pretty broken, hurting, and hateful.  JFC asked us, ready to change that?   NOW?  In 9 days?

Thank you, Len, for providing such interesting link, it surely deserves attention. Would you tell more about your ideas?

Lest we forget: one of the main themes of the show at least for me was Mitch's levitating and unlike his surfing ability, he seemed to have no control over it.

Mitch was right all along. He should've never bent to the will of Cissy and Butchie and let Shaunie go corporate with Stinkweed.  His rejection of corporate surfing was absolutely correct. The art of catching a wave whether on the water or in time is pure religion, it's not about the shirts or sandals or shorts the surfer wears, or the board the surfer rides or the car the surfer drives it's about The Wave. Mitch wasn't so much levitating as he was actually surfing on a wave of time and space and he didn't even know it, not until the Grand Alpha Moment when we all see God, the Mother of God.

E=MC2 will now be replaced by the mathematical description for the propagation of an ocean wave:

A wave is produced when a vibrating source periodically disturbs the first particle of a medium. This creates a wave pattern that begins to travel along the medium from particle to particle. The frequency at which each individual particle vibrates is equal to the frequency at which the source vibrates. Similarly, the period of vibration of each individual particle in the medium is equal to the period of vibration of the source. In one period, the source is able to displace the first particle upwards from rest, back to rest, downwards from rest, and finally back to rest. This complete back-and-forth movement constitutes one complete wave cycle. 

In other words: Surf's up brah!

Shaka!

OceanFlower:   :)  "The wave LIFTS them up!"

Sven 2:  Here's a more concise version of that vast weblink I posted.

There has been an ongoing project at Princeton University, nicknamed the "Princeton Eggs".  I will give you a short layman's version:

This University research team wanted to test the theory that the "nothingness" between matter , the "empty vacuum" of outer space and the space between the smallest atomic particles might actually be filled with the old Alchemical idea of the Aether -- a liquid-like, intelligent, conscious energy that connects all things in the universe, not only physically, but also emotionally and intellectually and consciously.

I know that's a mouthful.  Let's break it down.  Ever see 200 birds take off all at the exact same moment?  Ever know who was about to call you a moment before the phone rang?  Is it ALL coincidence?  Or is something greater at play?

The research team placed "random number generators" around the globe.  These computer boxes, all connected back to Princeton University, do nothing all day but generate random numbers: white noise, essentially.  They churn and churn and churn out random numbers and continuously report them back home.

What this research team has discovered, is that if enough humans on planet Earth all concentrate on the same thing, with intense emotion, the "eggs" generate much less random numbers.  And the non-randomness of these numbers can be graphed, like a siesmic chart. Soooo.....

Guess what spiked HUGE during Princess Dianna's funeral?

And I can't EVEN begin to tell you what happened when the planes hit the WTC towers on the morning of 9-11.  Go to the link above if you care to see for yourself.  Somewhat unexplained, is how the Egg charts started spiking an hour BEFORE the first plane hit the Trade Center!  That may go to the notion of time disolving when we get to these higher levels of conscious awareness. 

Anyway, there certainly seems to be a non-physical link between us humans and the Universe we find ourselves living in, and, at a certain maximum density a link between all of us individuals.  From the Princeton page comes this: 

http://noosphere.princeton.edu/story.html (http://noosphere.princeton.edu/story.html)

Tell me that when you read this, you are not able to think of John From Cincinnati? 

"Someday after mastering winds, waves, tides and gravity, we shall harness the energies of love, and then, for the second time in the history of the world, man will discover fire."

Len,

the theory you support is beautiful, thus it might be true, as beauty is a form of higher consciousness, though without getting into a long argument, would you seriously consider death or the funeral of princess Diana anything more than a media circus at its apogee? Come on, what effect might it have had on Bedouins or slaves in a diamond mine who never heard of her?  The Princeton Eggs project could be just an act of wishful thinking.

I do admire your belief in a radical change - for the better of humankind  as I am of the same thought.
There are no Sven 3 or 4, you may call me Sven. I'd mention that I am a woman, to prevent possible misunderstanding. (hahaha, I recall  the confusion of three years ago.....)

Your "layman version" is very well stated, please, continue with dear to you ideas. The dialog of that sort has been missing on the BB, for a long time. We should now hope Eccles and Waxon would find their way back, to participate.

Sven,
No, I agree, Dianna's funeral WAS a media circus, and had, in and of itself, NO magic whatsoever.   And never mind the Bedouins, I didn't even watch it.  But I remember my old Mom was deeply touched by it.  All the Princeton Eggs project  shows is that collectively, if enough humans focus on the same thing, at the same time, with enough emotional investment, we seem to be able to have physical effects on physical systems, in NON-material ways. 

And I think (personal belief here) our future as humans might just include abilities to help and heal each other, and our planet, simply by applied group-consciousness.

I think that was what John Monad was doing in Imperial Beach.  :)  I mean he got Vietnam Joe to rally the Vets, got Cissy and the groms to join in on the search party for Shawn, got Ramon into a suit and Church, got Mitch to talk to the media, hell he even got two drug-dealing gangsters to PRAY!!!   

And for me, the line of stick men above Barry's bar symbolized this miracle.

Sven: I'd mention that I am a woman

...and what a woman she is!  :-* but more on that later

Hey went to a double bill concert last night Greg Allman opening followed by Steve Miller... wow what a happening! I think a few of those Princeton eggs got hatched last night.... I can't explain it but the tribe was hitting the note & it felt so good... i think the buzz is gonna last awhile hopefully get me thru the day of toil and trouble...

Len,

Don't let Flower distract you from the discussion, I suspect he simply misplaced his comment. Besides I'd urge you to think about "running long distance" with us here, all sprinters left already, they are busy texting one another or twittering somewhere. Here is peace and quiet, maybe too quiet sometimes, good to meditate and research, no interruption.

Please, continue.
Respect, as they say.

S.

as I say I was suffering from a rock and roll hangover at the time....  :P

actually I thought my reference to the Princeton eggs and the tribal like experience i had the night before was relevant to the conversation n'cest pas??  ;D

Absolutely, Sven, I am just easing into this one.  :)

I am inspired in short bursts!  Lol... 

Another way to put it:  this is big!  This is HUGE!!!  And I have to "get orderly" so as not to damage what little crediblity I have left on the web.

You should have seen me over at the Space.com bbs -- they really didn't want to hear that I think mankind might have "began" on Mars, that NASA has covered up most of what they found on the moon, and that Einstein veered hard left from real, complete  physics!! :)

Anyway, you bet I will be continuing, as long as you guys are patient with me.

PS... lol... I really didn't know that either Gregg Allman OR Steve Miller were still alive!  I'll bet that was a GREAT show!

oh very much alive and well I noticed Gregg and I have put on a little weight since I last saw him in 1970 LOL! don't know where you are located but they are both on tour this summer and if you can you might want to catch a show I had a blast and even tho i was doing the monkey the slop the pony the mashed potatoes not to mention the lindy hop didn't torque my back! LOL!   :D

 ??? ??? ??? ::) :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Watching Ocean doing the Mashed Potatoes and the Pony...........

anytime you wanna take the dance floor with me sister i'll be ready
get your dancing shoes on and try to keep up   :P

Len,

ALL THAT? It's mind-boggling! ;D
When are you gonna start talking, for Chrissake!

yeah, obviously whatever i'm saying ain't hitting the note. . .

Help, Flower, what's "mashed potatoes" even mean, not a sludge of butter and starch in a pot obviously,  and is that some acrobatic number, doing "The Monkey"? My source of American slang the "Urban Dictionary" is mum on that, so how can I dance with you if it doesn't make any sense?
:-[ ??? :o  :D

Oh Svennie you are so damn cute you know that!  :-*
OK watch the blonde she's doing a pretty good example of the mashed potatoes
hit the link below the video then hit the 360p and a menu will pop up hit 240p & you'll get a real time video with all the moves.. and sweetheart rock and roll ain't supposed to make any sense that's why everybody loves it (well the hip people anyway!)


dee dee sharp - mashed potato time (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQBKpV9emKc&feature=related#)

Svennie baby -- here's a live version of Smokey Robinson and the Miracles doing Mickey's Monkey -- those white girls ain't bad at all -- what frustrates me about these you tube links is that they transfer over at 360p & the video doesn't flow naturally they should be played at 240p and then you don't get all that jerky stop and go... if nothing else go to the youtube site itself and check it out... as I look at these dances I used to do way back in the dark ages of the early 60s I say to myself... No wonder we were all skinny even tho we had no concept of nutrition eating greasy cheesburgers french fries and non-diet cherry cokes smoked like fiends & drank beer like it was water ... we didn't need aerobics classes or an hour at the gym we went dancing instead!! and here's something about rock and roll--everybody knows how to rock but not everybody knows how to roll... so roll baby, roll...  can u dig it??  8)

PS I just noticed right underneath the video is a hot link that will bring directly to the youtube site hit the 360p and a menu will pop up click on the 240p and you'll get a nice real time flowing video... whew I don't think i can bend down that low anymore w/o injuring myself!  :D




Smokey Robinson & The Miracles - Mickey's Monkey (Shindig 1964) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UP5VaEm9AWg&feature=related#)

Svennie baby you shouldn't leave a guy hanging too long after he's asked you for a dance. . . .  ;)

Svennie! still waiting!!   ;)

Oh, wait, wasn't it you, Flower, the handsome devil I've been dancing nonstop for two nights?  ???

first you make me wait now you make me jealous? just save the last dance for me darlin'!   :-*

did you check the vids with the dance moves??

Here's the link to an essay I wrote giving my thoughts on JFC and urging people to check it out.

http://open.salon.com/blog/zodzelig/2011/05/06/i_will_go_to_imperial_beach_seeing_john_from_cincinnati (http://open.salon.com/blog/zodzelig/2011/05/06/i_will_go_to_imperial_beach_seeing_john_from_cincinnati)

Bravo, Zodzelig, thank you, alabanza!

I hope you wouldn't mind if I (as a self-appointed guardian and watchman of the BB) re-post your Salon article HERE in its entirety?
I am collecting all JFC related info from all sources in this place, for safekeeping, just in case the links cease to exist or stop working.

IF you mind, Zodzelig, just say so, and I will delete the post immediately, OK?

MAY 6, 2011

I Will Go to Imperial Beach: Seeing "John from Cincinnati"
by Zodzelig


"What does it mean for an atheist to write that a one-season television series can serve as a novena against genocide, if only it is watched?  This is what I'm saying HBO's 2007 surf drama "John from Cincinnati" is: a 9-day 10-hour prayer for the intention of preventing a massacre of the world's Muslims, by breaking the fever of the so-called developed world that has held sway since 9/11 and exhibited itself in the celebratory responses to the death of Osama bin Laden. "


To read the rest follow the link below./b]

http://open.salon.com/blog/zodzelig/2011/05/06/i_will_go_to_imperial_beach_seeing_john_from_cincinnati (http://open.salon.com/blog/zodzelig/2011/05/06/i_will_go_to_imperial_beach_seeing_john_from_cincinnati)

Wow!  Stunningly well said!

I am about to send the box set to a scientist (NASA consultant) and his wife (Doctor of nutrition and holistic arts), and I was going to try to craft a letter that could prepare them for JFC.  To athiests and scientists, a good book to read is "Rolling Thunder" by Doug Boyd.  It is the chronicaled healings done in the 70s by a Shoshone tribal medicine man named Rolling Thunder, in front of hundreds of doctors (MDs and PhDs) at the Menninger Foundation in Topeka Kansas.

If the western mind can "believe" that even miracles are understandable, (requiring perhaps science advanced past current levels), then the possibilities of the John From Cincinnati mythos pop into very real allignment with our troubled world.  If so, folks like Zodzelig, and everyone here, can take the "leap of faith" into the New Golden Age promised in all of our ancient myths.

Thank you Sven2 and ZenOnMars. I'm happy to have the entire essay here as part of a comprehensive JFC archive.

HOWEVER: Could everyone who reads the article here please click on the link anyway? "Open Salon" is Salon's blogsite and it automatically counts the number of times an essay is accessed. It will give me an idea of how many people are--might be?--reading it. Thanks again.

Neil Allen (Zodzelig)

ZenOnMars: Will check out the Rolling Thunder book—literally: my central library branch has a copy. Would not mind a new golden age at all...I'd take a leap of faith for that!

Rolling Thunder aka John Pope cameoed in 3 Billy Jack films, hung out with Micky Hart of the Grateful Dead and Hart named an album after him. Dylan also named his mid-70s concert series the Rolling Thunder Revue after him and RT himself made several appearances onstage as well.  A totally far out cat no doubt. . . I think I still have paperback copy of his book somewhere in the archives around the house. . .   ;D

Hey, get a load of the symbol carved inside a small shaft within the Great Pyramid of Giza:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21028144.500-first-images-from-great-pyramids-chamber-of-secrets.html (http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21028144.500-first-images-from-great-pyramids-chamber-of-secrets.html)

Look carefully at the circular inset by the map.

:)
  l
^

Yes, it looks like a stickman. Or a smudge. :P
Really, it's cool. Any thoughts on the image, Zen? How did it get there, what do you think?

I have NO idea!

But my instinct tends to steer me in a far-out direction.  I think it may be a symbol lingering in our "collective consciousness".  We may be carrying around "genetic memories".  Now what will bake your noodle later is this:  Did Milch "channel" a universal symbol from our ancient past, or did the pyramid builders intuit it from an HBO show that wouldn't happen for thousands of years? :) :) :)

Good one, Zen!
Is that a fact that human figures with double size head appear in cave painting in Cro-Magnon era, and that a halo that saints are portrayed with are just helmets of space travelers?  8)
My take is - a stickman is a child's drawing, you remember your own, don't you?  ;)

Ah, yes, the stick man!  :)  I always included arms on my childhood stick men.

And this pyramid tunnel "graffitti" was certainly not made by a CroMagnon cave artist.  Whenever the Giza pyramid was constructed,  the men who had privy to that tunnel were incredibly sophisticated men - and built a structure, SOMEHOW, that today's construction engineers say they doubt they could build today, even with our modern technology.

So the guessing game goes on.  Fun, huh?  :)

Remember the "Sermon on the Snug" scene where John speaks in parables? There is quite a strange phrase, "Joe will save not Alleman. Joe will bring his buddies home." And later John says: "In Cass's camera to come, my father stares not Alleman down".

Thanks to Goggle language tools, or the online translation in general, it is clear: the mysterious "ALLEMAN"  is a word in Afrikaans and means "EVERYONE". Now what's left is to figure out what exactly that suppose to mean!

In addition, perhaps someone has any ideas on the promise "We are coming 9 11 14"? If it were just a chronological reference, then the date has passed without anything of note, has it not? If it were a quote from some book or The Book, as it's called sometimes, anyone knows from which book is it and what's the context?

Great insights, Sven!

I have always assumed that the "We are coming 9 11 14" was a prophecy... but what if it isn't?  In the last episode the doctor is young so maybe "we are coming" doesn't mean what we think it does.  So, who are "we"?  And is "9 11 14" a date or something else?

http://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/2lqllp/what_happened_in_your_country_this_week_09112014/ (http://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/2lqllp/what_happened_in_your_country_this_week_09112014/)

You know, "Who are "WE?" is the most interesting question for me.

Agreed.  In one of the interviews with Austin Nichols (who played JOHN) he said that Milch told him everything about JOHN.  So there are at least 2 people we know of who knows what was really going on...  Now, how do we find that out?  hummm...

Not to put too much stock into Nichols words, after all ain't actors trade is fibbing?  ;) it would be fun to know what the conversation those two had. Although, as I recall pretty esoteric (IMHO) explanations Milch expressed in the 'extras' on JFC DVD, I'd expect being more excited than informed.

I'll try to find out if it's possible to contact Austin Nichols, to just ask what he had learned.

About "THEM", I wish Waxon and Eccles shared their thoughts on that matter. Do you want to share yours? Anyone?