[Waxon]

Great observation, Cissy.  

John says last names of people as though he had them on a list.  Would it be safe to say that these are the people he was sent here to engage with and the others, as Eccles stated, are "the people surrounding them?"

Mitch, Cissy and Butchie are "broken" in various ways.  John plants a seed of rebirth in them - Their fruit will plant more seeds.  Link has apparently been chosen as the farmer - using his skills to cultivate the orchard.  

Yes, that is a tie to the Joe Strummer - Johnny Appleseed theme song.  

But Eccles thoughts on the "prisons"

We all live according to a certain ethos - something we don't have to think about all the time. Prison provides this for some ... in "the system." Of course, the prisons you're talking about are ones in which the walls and bars are fashioned inside of us, but what I'm suggesting is that living free outside that prison can seem a daunting prospect. After all, if a guy like Butchie has understood himself in certain terms for most of his life, being free of those terms and that self-definition can seem to ego a lot like dying, and that's a scary deal. The thing is, Butchie doesn't go through it alone. He has Kai looking out for him. When he has his breakthrough with regard to not wanting to use the herion he just scores, he says, "I think it's off me." Kai gives him someone to tell that to - someone who literally holds his hand. Besides Kai, Meyer has been trying to help, Ramon has been keeping his eye on him, Shaun refuses to give up on him, Freddie comes all the way from Hawaii, and Bill is there if he needs him.


made me think of the following line from that song:

"Not drinking from the well - locked in the factory"

The seeds John plants are to help his subjects break out of those factory walls.  I guess, in a sense, that is the fruit.

What do you think?

[Sven2]

Good to learn more about JFC from our our own crowd!

Cissy, there are some concentric waves (like from a pebble thrown in water), you are right, the ripple gradually reaches more distant waters, as John's visit is reaching more people in the show.

I am not sure, Waxon, that Linc is a "farmer" as you say.

That is one other question that bothers me for some time now. Why, if that's not only for the purpose of developing the plot in the desired direction, Linc is supposed to come up, he is seemingly under the least stress, or better, under the least influence from John? Am I mistaken? Is there some transformation he went through I've  missed? Linc as one of the powers that broke Butchie's back, and as such, he is the one responsible to help restore the links? (No pun)

That and the scene where Linc and Tina meet at the pier and Tina states that her wish is "to strike it big", after that they walk away happily. That scene always rubbed me wrong.

Any ideas?

[SaveJFC Admin]

made me think of the following line from that song:

"Not drinking from the well - locked in the factory"

The seeds John plants are to help his subjects break out of those factory walls.  I guess, in a sense, that is the fruit.

What do you think?

I think it's time to hear the full version of the song...

Joe Strummer "Johnny Appleseed"

[SaveJFC Admin]

That is one other question that bothers me for some time now. Why, if that's not only for the purpose of developing the plot in the desired direction, Linc is supposed to come up, he is seemingly under the least stress, or better, under the least influence from John? Am I mistaken? Is there some transformation he went through I've  missed? Linc as one of the powers that broke Butchie's back, and as such, he is the one responsible to help restore the links? (No pun)

That and the scene where Linc and Tina meet at the pier and Tina states that her wish is "to strike it big", after that they walk away happily. That scene always rubbed me wrong.

Any ideas?

In my opinion, Linc and Tina each had unique and intimate relationships with the Yosts and each was always an outsider.  They both fully understood the Yost lifestyle, business and dynamics but neither were allowed full entrance into the family.

And so they each had a unique experience with the Yosts that no other person could understand but each other.  They are soul mates.

I think what changed Linc was his visceral experience of romantic love with Tina that really changed him.  After that, he had to try to rationally and practically make sense of it.  Thus his talk with JOHN sitting on the ground outside Butchie's apartment.  Linc needs to find an intellectual way of understanding what his heart already knows.  Tina's acceptance and caring for him as well as what he had seen happening to others around him in the wake of JOHN changed him.


(Cut back to the motel parking lot as Linc and John are still sitting together on the pavement.)

Linc: So... I'm the guy that every time you see, you tell the end is near.

John: You're Linc Stark. You should get in the game.

Linc: Like Mitch Yost?

John: Mitch Yost should get back in the game.

Linc: So I've never been in the game?

John: If my words are yours, can you hear my father?

Linc: Let's say I can.

John: Let's say the zeros and ones in Cass' camera help you hear my father's word.

Linc: Cass and I go back.

John: Let's say you and Cass go back, Linc Stark. Let's say, in my father's word, in Cass' camera, the internet is big. 9/11 is big. But not every towelhead is eradicated.

Linc: Let's say I don't follow.

John: Let's say, without Cass' camera, "big" and "huge" won't mean dick. Getting dusted won't be an issue.

Linc: (pauses) This is me grabbing my balls and jumping here, John.

John: Grab your jump-balls, Linc.

Linc: You use my words, and when you speak them, if I listen right, I can hear your father?

John: Yes Linc.

John: If you are then end, I am near you.

John: Yes Linc.

Linc: Without Cass' camera, whatever the fuck that is, we're all toast?

John: You're all going to be toast. We're coming 9/11/14.

Linc: Fuck me, John.

John: Fuck you Linc.

Linc: (We're watching now through Cass' camera) Is there any special purpose to us burning our ass-cheeks off on this asphalt?

John: I don't know Butchie instead.

[Eccles]

I've just popped by my office (I don't have a computer at home) on my way to run some errands and I enjoyed reading the latest posts. Thanks, Cissy (and all 'yall)  for the questions. The discussions? I look forward to them. In fact, I'm going to read again what you all wrote and think about it over the weekend.

Later.

[Eccles]

made me think of the following line from that song:

"Not drinking from the well - locked in the factory"

By the way, I enjoyed Michael Pollan's "The Botany of Desire" so much last summer I read it twice more. The first chapter, in which he traces the routes of the original Johnny Appleseed, is wonderful. I had Joe's song in my head throughout.

[Eccles]

That is one other question that bothers me for some time now. Why, if that's not only for the purpose of developing the plot in the desired direction, Linc is supposed to come up, he is seemingly under the least stress, or better, under the least influence from John? Am I mistaken? Is there some transformation he went through I've  missed? Linc as one of the powers that broke Butchie's back, and as such, he is the one responsible to help restore the links? (No pun)

That and the scene where Linc and Tina meet at the pier and Tina states that her wish is "to strike it big", after that they walk away happily. That scene always rubbed me wrong.

Any ideas?

In my opinion, Linc and Tina each had unique and intimate relationships with the Yosts and each was always an outsider.  They both fully understood the Yost lifestyle, business and dynamics but neither were allowed full entrance into the family.

And so they each had a unique experience with the Yosts that no other person could understand but each other.  They are soul mates.

I think what changed Linc was his visceral experience of romantic love with Tina that really changed him.  After that, he had to try to rationally and practically make sense of it.  Thus his talk with JOHN sitting on the ground outside Butchie's apartment.  Linc needs to find an intellectual way of understanding what his heart already knows.  Tina's acceptance and caring for him as well as what he had seen happening to others around him in the wake of JOHN changed him.

Interesting thoughts about Linc. I recall that he was the first person to whom John spoke: "The end is near." Linc does provide the link (pun intended) between the Yost family and the public interested in them. He has been the Yost Family Image Maker, selling the Family Magic for years. Funnily enough - the purpose of the parade and "the pageant in the barn" was to demystify and play down the miraculous. His mission now as an image maker is to simply present the family itself and allow that to be the story.

I enjoyed what SaveJFC said about Linc and Tina. I think all of that was going on abd I also think Linc was mightily rocked by what he could not explain - Shaun was dead when he came out of the water. I think this served as a powerful catalyst for change with Linc and certainly disturbed the surface and broke up the ice, perhaps making his relationship with Tina possible.

[Eccles]

Linc: You use my words, and when you speak them, if I listen right, I can hear your father?

John: Yes Linc.

John: If you are then end, I am near you.

John: Yes Linc.

One of the things I enjoy about the series is how Milch and Company left the question of precisely who and what John was up to the observer. His last name is "Monad" ("sounds French"), but that is simply a fact and not necessarily a clue since I've never understood the series to be a puzzle in need of solving. Sometimes while watching the series, I thought of John as an angel. That worked with the whole "monad" thing, in a way, if not entirely. Note: I never said "that's what or who John is, but merely that I thought of him that way. Other folks no doubt had different images which worked for them. Later on, I came to think of John as pure, undivided consciousness incarnate in the body of a young Chet Baker.

"Must I say for me?"  8)

[Eccles]

I was thinking again about how Linc described Butchie years ago avoiding the one person at a party he would most like to meet. While it's true that Butchie's mother pushes people away, that's not really what Linc is describing in Butchie himself, and his behavior in this respect puts me in mind of Mitch.

Mitch, I say? Yup. Mitch. One of my favorite scenes is when Mitch confronts Cissy in their home in the penultimate episode, takes all the anger and negativity she throws at him, puts up with her childishly kicking him and blowing forbidden smoke in his face, and says: "Give me the weight." Mitch convinced himself that his tree-house was his sanctuary but Butchie correctly identified it as his "fort." After seeking a spiritual experience, he finally gets one and thinks it's cancer. After years of confusing non-attachment with detachment, floating above his family in his tree-house-fort-sanctuary, his experience ends up bringing him back down to earth and into the loving embrace of his family. I am coming to the opinion that Butchie learned to flee from Daddy-Dearest.

[Sven2]

Eccles wrote:

"I thought of John as an angel. (...) Later on, I came to think of John as pure, undivided consciousness incarnate in the body of a young Chet Baker.
"Must I say for me?"   8)"

Eccles, it seems to me that "undivided consciousness" includes dark, self-destructive or even murderous, the whole chaos of the world with its death and  inflicted suffering. I often thought that consciousness without compassion is plain curiosity, scientific knowledge that may lead sometimes astray. Your use of the epithet "pure" separates "lovingkind" consciousness from the cold observation of life and death by some demigod.

I thought that John is sometimes a teacher and at other times a student, (Tao way). For example, he for the first time experiences life on Earth in human body. He is visibly in pain after "Vato" cuts him, and that is a stark contrast to the second "knife" incident, in the scene of "interrogation" by Bill Jacks, where he doesn't show any physical distress.

I'm not making myself very clear, I know. I love the next Barry's phrase: "Isn't "for me" understood?"  8)

[Sven2]

May I use a quote from a JFC related article in regard to Eccles great observation of Mitch's personality?

"He's an egocentric, New Age whiner. I'm sure many people when confronted with a miracle would ascribe it to their own "specialness," but he went there faster than anyone else. Mitch resembles a good 80% of the aging men I've met since moving to Southern California. ("Can you feel the chakras, baby?") That's a real compliment to Bruce Greenwood and the show's writers, but damn, if I don't want to smack Mitch in the face every time he floats away or starts whining about his blessed knee. I'd buy his "soul surfer" status a bit more if he weren't so bloody self-righteous about it."

It's perhaps harsh, though nothing scares me more than people that act from the position of "righteousness", that in most cases is passionate cruelty to anyone different, or not smart enough, or one who has other beliefs, etc. When Mitch, not able to find the way to calm Cissy in her "temper tantrum" condescendingly promises "I will pray for you", that in my (personal) view is his total failure as a husband.
Of course, he ultimately "landed".  ;)

A quote is from:
http://www.tvsquad.com/2007/07/02/john-from-cincinnati-his-visit-day-3/

[Eccles]

Eccles wrote:

"I thought of John as an angel. (...) Later on, I came to think of John as pure, undivided consciousness incarnate in the body of a young Chet Baker.
"Must I say for me?"   8)"

Eccles, it seems to me that "undivided consciousness" includes dark, self-destructive or even murderous, the whole chaos of the world with its death and  inflicted suffering. I often thought that consciousness without compassion is plain curiosity, scientific knowledge that may lead sometimes astray. Your use of the epithet "pure" separates "lovingkind" consciousness from the cold observation of life and death by some demigod.

Yes, I very much hope so.

[Eccles]

I thought that John is sometimes a teacher and at other times a student, (Tao way). For example, he for the first time experiences life on Earth in human body. He is visibly in pain after "Vato" cuts him, and that is a stark contrast to the second "knife" incident, in the scene of "interrogation" by Bill Jacks, where he doesn't show any physical distress.

I'm not making myself very clear, I know. I love the next Barry's phrase: "Isn't "for me" understood?"  8)

I often found watching John experiencing "life on Earth in a human body" very funny, one of my favorite moments being in the First Episode when Vietnam Joe calls to him from inside the bushes, and John, not sure which direction the voice is coming from, looks up. I laugh every time. For John, that could very well be the direction. (I sometimes do the same thing when someone calls my name.)

He seems to give us back our words and the emotional intensity we give him (Butchie's adrenaline rush on his way to "fight" his dad in Ep. 1., the Vato's attitude and emotions in Ep. 4.), stripped of everything that isn't love.

[Eccles]

May I use a quote from a JFC related article in regard to Eccles great observation of Mitch's personality?

"He's an egocentric, New Age whiner. I'm sure many people when confronted with a miracle would ascribe it to their own "specialness," but he went there faster than anyone else. Mitch resembles a good 80% of the aging men I've met since moving to Southern California. ("Can you feel the chakras, baby?") That's a real compliment to Bruce Greenwood and the show's writers, but damn, if I don't want to smack Mitch in the face every time he floats away or starts whining about his blessed knee. I'd buy his "soul surfer" status a bit more if he weren't so bloody self-righteous about it."

"Where were you?" (Shaun Yost, to his Grampa.)

I had the exact same reaction. It was fun to see him moving beyond this as it seems to me he does in the course of the series, however unwillingly at first.

[Eccles]

The fact that I have far more questions about this series than answers is something which, far from bothering me, has turned out to be a source of delight. Here's another question:

When Vietnam Joe drives up with John in the front seat of the van and glances over at Ramon and Meyer and proclaims: "The three amigos," was he including John among them, as if "wherever two are three are gathered together" John is in their midst even if they don't know it ... type of thing?

I have to work at home this afternoon. Later, all.

"Work here, Eccles."

;)